No, you mistunderstood me! I did not write, that chat should be implemented into GComm!!! I wrote "this means you can start your own chat service on your site to build a real community". This has nothing related to GComm features...

The "Who is online" is not a plugin of GForum, right? Why was it implemented into GForum? Why not created it as plugin?
As for the Guests count feature, at the moment we don't know what plugin hooks will be available in GComm... So we can't tell if will be possible to do the Guests count feature as plugin or should be implemented as core (but optional) feature...

Also if GComm is just an authorization script, nothing more, then all features what would be added, should be solved as plugin. That would mean a lot plugins, if you would want to create a whole system with a lot features.
Can you estimate how much plugin incompatibilities will be after adding 20-30 plugins to GComm? I don't think so. I researched the GT::Plugins core code (used in LinksSQL) and found a few annoyances what would cause problems if a lot of different plugins are added. While we can't set the execution order of plugin, there will be happen to have incompatibility problems between the plugins. Not necessarily, because incompatibility depends of plugin code, but there is the possibility...

As for PHP-Nuke, as I know it's plugin based so you need to add only those features what you want. Plugins in GT products are for the same purpose like modules in PHP-Nuke...

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As I said, the "whos on" is available in GForum but if you use GForum, GMail, LinksSQL, ETC., you are only getting one third of the information. As well if you make 3 versions of whos on you will get crossover that inflates the actual counts.

THe right answer is a plugin that is in Community that shows information based upon community logins only. Then your count would be closer to accurate and much more controllable.

If you want to see who is using what program this can be done through the normal server logs.

Just my opinion of course.

Maybe you didn't say that chat should be built into the community script, but once users online was added you'd want hooks for one added too. I've seen this happen many times before (and not just here), no matter how many features a program has, someone always wants something else added.


The main reasons why GForum has the Who's Online feature as an integral part of the program are:-

1. Many people consider it to be an essential feature in a forum
2. GT products weren't able to share information until the community script was written

Having a who's online feature in a forum can be useful if you want to send a priate message to someone you know and want a quick reply.

It's hardly a useful feature for a Links directory. Yahoo, AltaVista etc. don't have it. If you're searching for a site, it's not really a high priority to know who else is on the site you're about to leave.

The same goes for reading email.


Without knowing it, you're proving my point by mentioning 20 to 30 plugins. If that many features were added to the core script from the outset, it would be 20 to 30 times bigger than it needed to be for its intended use.

The whole point of plugins is that you add as many as you need and no more. Including them directly in a program - even if they can be "turned off" is a waste of resources. Very few users are likely to want that many features.

Building features into a program instead of making them separate modules is not going to magically remove any incompatibilities between them. In fact, building a program in a modular way is more likely to make the author/coder write the sections in a re-usable way.

The other things to consider are that each additional feature will take time to create, and there is a limit to how many GT would provide for free (if indeed it is going to be free). People have already been complaining about how long this program took to get to a beta version, and you want to delay the final release further by asking for new features?


Yes, in theory PHP-Nuke is supposed to be plugin/module based so you only add the features you want, but the standard installation (without addons) has over 2600 files. Am I the only one who thinks that is way over the top? It's only a news publishing script after all.

Well, I was under the impression that information would flow both ways via the community plugin. In other words, GForum would have access to the info needed to show all registered users and guests.

If it didn't/doesn't work that way, I'm sure the next version of GForum would/will fix that.

Personally, if I was using GMail, I wouldn't want to be shown as being online anyway as that's a private rather than a community related task.

The same is true (but slightly less so) of using Links SQL to search for another site.

First, before I write my reply about the GT related things, let me start with my opinion about PHP-Nuke to end talking about that offtopic app.
No. It's a content management script already. It's more than just a news publishing script.
PHP-Nuke and its successors like Post-Nuke or others, has many (thousands?) sites based on them...
It's very popular. If you don't like it having so much files, then don't use it, but don't bring it as example. IMHO, your example was bad, since all *Nuke scripts are very popular.
Anyway, I don't see any reason to talk about PHP-Nuke here. So I don't want to talk about *Nuke apps, in fact we are on GT forum.

This is how people works... Didn't you notice yet? People always want more & more...
Developers will decide, which suggestions they accept, and which not. You don't have to decide instead developers, if a suggestion is valid to be implemented or not!
We can just express our opinions, that we personally need a scecific feature or not, and our reasons why we need that.

Exactly! Therefore, there is no reason to keep Who's Online feature available just in GForum.
So the Who's Online feature should be available in GCommunity, since GCommunity treats sessions.

The fact, if we can use the comm_sessions table to also track Guest users (not just registered users) or not, highly depends on what plugin hooks will be implemented later.
If for some reasons we might be need to create a new table to track all online visitors, then this will result database redundancy! And database redundancy means badly designed database, which effect should be avoided...

This is simply not true. All applications which use the web & interacts with visitors in any way, would find Who's Online feature useful! Users like to meet other people browsing on the same website, at the same time. They like to communicate each other! No matter how, through email, through private messages, through chat appication, through forum software, etc...
So the Who's Online feature is the base of marketing strategies which continues in community creation using any of the above listed applications.

IMHO, many webmasters would want these features as base feature of GCommunity:
- Who's online
- Private messaging (at least basic one)

Why?
Because everybody thought, that GT Community name means a script, which helps them to create a great community on their site. Unfortunately not. GT Community will treat just authorization, nothing more.
In that case GT should have named as GT Authorize and not as GT Community!
The GT Community name seems misleaded people, who thought they will get more features in this script, not just authorization...

Of course it is another thing, that I know GT will not implement "Who's online" and "Private messaging" features into GCommunity as core features, because:

GT stated, that GCommunity will be just an authorization software similarly like MS Passport. GCommunity has nothing more to do, just to authorize users. You can check yourself what Alex wrote in this thread about this: Community Concept. (hmmm then why did not call it GT Authorize?)

Who's online - will be likely implemented as plugin (if it will be not available, I will develop it for myself. If others will ask to be released, I will release it as a cheap plugin)

Private messaging - will be implemented as plugin or as separate app (like GMail or LSQL), and IMHO it will be likely released as paid script , for somewhat less money like GT Mail currently costs. If for any reasons GT will release it as free, I'm sure it's done for marketing reasons, similar as they release GCommunity as freeware...

That's only my personal opinion about how GT plans its developments & releases in future, but I see it become true. However I would be really glad to have released both Who's online plugin & Private messaging plugins as freeware.
At the moment GCommunity app seems to become a "Barbie"-like product, as I expressed myself in "Community Concept" thread.

Anyway I welcome the GT Community script, and I also like that it's free. But I keep the right for me, to be a bit disappointed, that GT Community will be not community script, just an authorization script.

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Webmaster33

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Alex made the idea behind community clear from the very start. I'm not sure why you think you can tell him how he should name his scipts.

I don't force Alex to name his script in any way.
I told, that the name was misleading, and mentioned what name would describe correcty the features it currently supports.

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By integrating several scripts together allowing users to move seamlessly between them all creates a "community" - the core feature is authorization, but calling it "Gossamer Authorize" doesn't have any meaning. Look at authorize.net - they deal with merchant accounts and online transactions. Calling the script "Gossamer Authorize" is more misleading than commnuity.

Let we translate this in other form. We know GCommunity is similar like MS Passport.

So what you say, on a Microsoft forum this should look similarly like this:
''By integrating several websites together allowing users to move seamlessly between them all creates a "community" - the core feature is authorization, but calling it "MS Passport" doesn't have any meaning. Calling it "MS Passport" is more misleading than calling it "MS Community".''

I wrote the same what you wrote, but replaced the names & script => website. Result is funny, eh?
No comment.

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Sorry, not really sure what point you are making.

Anyway, it's not really important. I wouldn't expect Alex to change the name of community now :)

I'm saying the same: I wouldn't expect Alex to change the name of community
Again, I just mentioned, it was a misleading name, because it seems users awaited more features, based on this name, including me too.
We are in a lucky situation, that we can tell our opinion in beta stage, before the final release (however likely this will not change any of the main final features).

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I'm not going to get into an argument about the differences between a content management system and a news publishing script, but I will give my reasons for using PHP-Nuke as an example.

a) I couldn't use a GT product as an example, because GT scripts don't suffer from the problem I was trying to point out
b) It is a well-known program
c) Although there are several forks, it was the first and one of the biggest

Yes, I noticed many years ago that's how people are. I was just pointing out the consequences of including every feature that people say they need.

I really don't see why you object so strongly to someone giving their reasons for not including a feature if you yourself feel entitled to give reasons why it should.

By your reasoning, you yourself shouldn't be saying a feature should be included as that's up to the developers. Alex gave reasons why guests online couldn't/wouldn't be included, and you've since given your opinion on how/why it should.

Just because someone's opinion differs from your own, it doesn't mean they aren't just as entitled to express it.

You're giving your opinion on why you'd like certain features added, and I'm giving mine on why I wouldn't.

At the end of the day, it's Alex who will decide, and he already said the feature wouldn't be added on the first page.

Wysardry,

Unfortunately it is not likely, that Alex will implement the features what the people thought they will get with GCommunity. Anyway, yes, Alex will decide about that finally.
I already expressed my suggestions & my opinion about these things, so I have nothing more to say in that subject.

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Webmaster33

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So it's not just me

http://gossamer-threads.com/...33%20opinion;#196827

Paul, you can't forget your griefs, right?

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So I think that we are jumping the gun here. The whole concept of the GT Community script will make all of our sites much more attractive to visitors. Alex finally gets a beta release of the script out after so much anticipation and everybody starts in on how the script should be better. Aren't you people ever happy? After all, the script does exactly what GT said it would do, give your users one login page for all GT scripts. Literally giving users access to a community of scripts with one login.

Perhaps GT Community 2.0 will offer a feel of a community of users instead of a community of scripts.

I personally could care less about any features outside of central logins. I figure that a wide variety of plug-ins, mods, and hacks will be available in a short time. For now lets just try to work the bugs out of the beta and get Community 1.0 ready for implementation.
beetleman

Marcus L. Griswold

Yes, well said !

I think this is and should be the one and only task at the moment!

I am (and others too) waiting for a working release of community for more than a year now and if I'm reading all the bug reports I get an very uncomfortable feeling that it will still last a few weeks (month?) until all this bugs are eliminated by GT and a working script is out!

What do YOU ALL think, how long will it last if they(GT) start to implement all or just some of the wanted features?

I wouldn't be happy at all if the release of a working script would last longer than necessary!

Regards,
Manu

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Yes, I aggree. First GCommunity should be bugfixed, and v1.0 finally released.

We all want to have the final release out. Not new features.

My worries are about that GT even LATER will NOT plan to implement Who's Online & Private Messaging as dore feature of GCommunity...

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Webmaster33

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It seems you don't get my point. So I will express my opinion in details.
First let me express again, I'm glad that GComm is released, and that it's free.
Secondly I have some worries, I wrote in earlier posts.

Let me show the origin of my worries...
All my problems starts with the MONEY...:
1) I spent ALL my saved money to buy Links SQL.

2) I will buy some cheap plugins for Links SQL of a max US$100 value

3) I will have to buy a copy of GForum. I don't know yet how, because I don't have money, but I will have to buy it. It costs US$200. (to have comparison about how much money it is, in my country 1 month salary is about US$230-$250 ...)

4) Now of course after buying GForum, I will install GCommunity. It is offered for free. I welcome this, however I really afraid, that we will pay much money to have it for free.

5) After I have installed the GCommunity, I would like to make possible for users to contact each other (Private Messaging system). Allowing communication between users will strengthen community. Altough I have the Private Messaging system in GForum, what already bought in step 3, and I can not use it sitewide...

For a community software I would await at least the 2 mentioned features as base feature. But GT will likely release GCommunity software with authorization feature only, and seems does not have plan to implement these 2 features as core features. I asked the question why?
Here I supposed, that if GT does not plan to implement Who's Online & Private Messaging as core part of GComm, they will likely release as paid plugin. And this is my problem. How much would they ask for a Private messaging plugin? US$50? US$100? US$200?
If the cheapest GT Mail version costs US$650, and the most expensive version costs US$4950, how much would cost the Private Messaging system? Likely will be below US$200, because the GForum price.
If I bought GForumalready for US$200 in step 3, which contains Private Messaging, I would await (IMHO fairly) to have the Private Messaging available sitewide for free, using the GCommunity.

6) Theoritically I spent already at least US$800-$900 and still did not earn even a cent with the site. So if I also want to earn money, I have to buy the PayPerClick LinksSQL plugin for US$1500... This would be in overall about US$2300-$2400....

Unfortunately even after spending more than $700 until the step 4, I simply will have to stop buying new products, because I will have no more money to buy anything...
This is my point to be disappointed, and because likely Who's Online and Private Messaging will be not implemented as core feature of GCommunity...

The dream to spend even US$2400 to start making money on my site, but this is thousands miles away...


Perharps money isn't a problem for most of you, but it is for me. So until money & prices affects me so much, until that time I will fight to have the Who's Online and Private Messaging available as core feature of GCommunity (not in first v1.0 release, but at least in v2.0). Both features I asked were developed already, nobody should say, it's very difficult to implement an already working feature...

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Webmaster33

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I think you are moving too far away from the idea behind community. Alex has said numerous times it is a plugin to tie all of their scripts together.

I'm sure extra features will come with time, either by Gossamer Threads or by developers when plugin hooks are added, but at the moment I think you need to concerntrate on the issue in hand which is helping Alex find/fix bugs and suggesting improvements to the current plugin rather than trying to suggest new features at such an early stage.

As a developer, you don't want to be adding new features at beta stage...you want to stabilize the product.

While I expressed my opinion and worries in this thread, I also submitted numerous bug reports I found in beta version of GCommunity, so you can't blame me.
I exactly done, what you told it's needed to do now.

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Please stop

I too have made suggestions for new ideas to go along with Community. I also understand that the reason I made these suggestions now is to assist in potential hooks for the FINAL release and have no desire to see these added to a beta. And this IS a beta release.

There are good reasons to make suggestions now (to assist in hooks, etc...) and even more to be patient now (to give time to fine tune and stabilize the beta).

Everybody has good points. Just leave it at that!

Remember: Community is what Community does and Community can be what Community inspires.

Brian

Teambldr,

Did you ever read my posts above? Read it again!

I wrote:
I think you don't even read posts of others. You completely missed what I wrote...

I wrote, first I also want a v1.0 GCommunity release, without new features.
But I would like the mentioned features into v2.0, because I have NO money to buy them separately, once I also buy a product (GForum) which has that feature implemented.

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Webmaster33

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*chill*

Think happy thoughts.

Quote:

6) Theoritically I spent already at least US$800-$900 and still did not earn even a cent with the site.

Sorry, but are you sure, that it makes sense to you going on to develop your site if you still make no money with it ??

GCom (and private messaging) helps to make a site more usable..but it don't gives you a license to print money!

Regards,
Manu

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